There is a great Oped in today’s NY Times by Jessica Bennett, which I highly recommend. Like many other journalists (myself included), Bennett applauds Carroll’s fortitue and bravery for standing up to Trump and not backing down. But Bennett also begins by making clear who Carroll was as a journalist in the 1980’s, which is crucial to read. The media tends to describe Carroll as a “former Elle advice columnist” which was only one of her many jobs. I recall knowing who she was when I was starting out in the 1980’s, she was (and is) funny, tough, smart, provocative, innovative and a well-known presence around NYC.
An example from the male side . . . I have been applying for a position in my field since July. Dozens and dozens of applications. My resume shows that I am far more qualified than virtually all of the other applicants. I have never received a response, much less an offer. Why? I am 76.
It happens to men, but we can’t say that it does. We have to pretend that we become more visible, more attractive and more powerful as we age, but the reality of it all isn’t true... we become shadows... not quite invisible, but also not quite visible.
Thanks for this and for the referral to Bennett's article. I will soon become that "80-year old woman" that is getting so much stereotypical press coverage -- an astonishing (to me) fact of life. But I have been majorly annoyed at the astonishment among many reporters that an "80-year old" can have strength and gumption and the capacity to have goals, stand tall (well I am a little bowed and envy E. Jean's posture) and talk intelligently and with critical understanding both about her own experience and a larger than personal worldview. I don't consider myself part of the "silent generation" but part of the second wave of feminist loudmouths -- the not so silent generation that came of age and helped change the role of women in the sixties and seventies and that are especially frustrated now by the apparent back sliding. Go E. Jean! and Liza!
"... that are especially frustrated now by the apparent back sliding." At a few public gatherings on various issues, I've seen T's and signs that say "I can't believe I still have to protest this sh*t."
It is incredible, isn't it? Yay for feminist loudmouths!! When I listened to E.Jean's testimony at the first trial, she was incredible in how she decribed Trump's assault and her reaction. It was compelety believable, particularly knowing her a little and knowing the times it happened in. I am so glad things are getting somewhat better...although not great for sure on so many levels and for so many women.
I can remember the phrase "Act your age!" during teen years (to my brother) but never after that. I don't think ageism is simply a feminist issue as the men here have said. I do believe women are less valued for their minds and looks as we get older than men. Society is geared to valuing the youthful with job opportunities, television and magazine ads (erase those hard earned age lines!) and perpetuating the myth that we elders have little to offer. Remember everyone, with age comes wisdom! Carroll remains smart, capable and tenacious and all those adjectives you used, Liza. As Tina Turner sang so well, "What has age got to do with it?"
Maybe because I was raised around strong older women who persevered, and men who, whatever they did in their lives, turned to their mothers with deference for advice - solicited - or especially when not. I didn’t question my worth as I’ve grown older. The women whatever age in the family don’t either. And yet almost every single one of us (not including the granddaughter or grandnieces) have experienced, to a lesser or greater degree, molestation in our lives. It makes me ill thinking of it. It makes me ill seeing it, it makes me furious when women don’t acknowledge it.
Thanks for your article and the Bennett article about this strong and courageous woman. As a woman of 67 who plans to "retire" at the end of this year, it makes me even more eager to jump into all the things I want to explore beyond all the fascinating work I have been doing for almost 5 decades!
I am so glad to read about Carroll's career and your comments really hit a nerve with me. I was hassled by a man in one of my positions, a higher up who had a great deal of potential power over me. When I refused to comply with his demands, he was dumbfounded. "You won't be young and beautiful forever," he said. There are so many ways in which that sentence typifies the sense of entitlement that these men have and when it's challenged, they get very angry. Thanks for your additional information on Carroll.
I will read it. As an 80 year-old male cumudgeon ('old fart' to the young) I am truly inspired by this amazing woman and eager to brave the pain and discomfort of the next twenty years just to grow, learn and express my ideas as I have been doing all my life. I wish Ms. Carroll all good fortune and success and would be thrilled to see her beat out the lumbering loaf of lies.
Thanks for posting the link to Ms. Bennett’ op-ed piece. It definitely raised my awareness of Ms. Carroll’s accomplishments and talents. I have made it a point to limit Trump related news but have greatly admired E. Jean Carroll’s courage and competence throughout.
The issue of ageism leaves one with much to think about.
There's a funny (well, not funny if it feels familiar) in a Grace & Frankie episode where the clerk at the checkout ignores them, the message being they're older women. What they do to get his attention ... unfortunately, at 66 I can relate. I live where there are lots of walkers and bikers on a seaside boardwalk and park paths. As I walk or run, I find a group of 3 to 6 20-somethings will be walking/running towards me taking up lots of room and not move over to accommodate me. Like I'm supposed to veer off into the landscaping mulch or off the path into the poison ivy. I just stay the course and do not move over. Sometimes they are annoyed and move last second. Sometimes one of them has manners and guides their group around me, sometimes with a sheepish "sorry about that" or a look of "these guys are dolts." It even happened in the pool swimming laps once! Sometimes I smile and say "great day, isn't it?" Depends on my mood. I will not be "unseen."
GOOD!! Carrying a cane and placing it strategically in certain places at times doesn’t hurt either, especially if it has that claw at the end of it. “Oh, I’m so sorry! Is your foot ok? Again, so sorry...” 😉😀
ANd I do the same thing with young people sometimes on the sidewalk, seeing if they see me and give me my half of the walk like it's supposed to be on a highway.
For leading age Boomer men … [long, boring catalog of widely known and personally stinging experience omitted from consideration of the reader].
Well, we have the Ken problem. Rewrite the fable so that Barbieland was a multi-generational community free of any Kens, Kens only arrive from the Real World finding themselves suddenly old and incapable of mounting a hostile takeover by the Patriarchy and just as beset by confusion as real men are in the Real World.
It used to be that there were manly jobs, recognized as such. Typically, these required a combination of physical strength, agility, endurance, willingness to risk grave injury or death and a secure place in a team hierarchy. A guy might not be a foreman at the steel plant, but he could be the bowling league champ. Lumberjacks, commercial fishermen, cowboys, fire jumpers, miners were jobs that presumptively fit the bill. They didn't need a college degree, oversize pick-up trucks, lush facial hair, musculature or billboarded skin. The unassailable subordination of women across the board made overt misogyny unnecessary. Bar fights did happen, but they seldom resulted more than a broken jaw. The implicit threat of exercising free speech rights with concealed pistols wasn't there.
Today, not so much. The traditional manly jobs such as firefighter that remain turned out not to rely so much on the same combination of manly virtues as formerly thought. It became harder to keep the girls out of the treehouses. Or even locker rooms. Only in the NBL, NBL and MLB could they be excluded from the courts and the fields. So what used to be hero worship turned into worship of the remaining real men in the world.
You can spin out the details, and reach the inevitable conclusion: sixty years along three generations of men haven't reconciled to the reality that women can get by without them when motherhood is an optional role. It can even be taken on as a sideline to being her own breadwinner.
When I saw the "woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle," meme, I got the obvious but missed the fundamental point. From a feminist viewpoint, it's not unfair to think of men as a lifestyle accessory. As such, the best we can hope for is for our style to be in and out of fashion. At least until we invent new manly virtues, aging is only going to make faking the old ones infeasible.
The tropes are so effective. When I became the youngest woman editor of a mass circulation magazine, Murdoch media described me as "a champion gymnast with editorial experience." No wonder it's such a battle for women to be taken seriously. Thanks for the post liza.
I limit my news to limit my stress. The most I know of this trial is through you, Liza. I so appreciate that you amplify strong women (and that you ARE one). Your posts give me comfort and hope.
An example from the male side . . . I have been applying for a position in my field since July. Dozens and dozens of applications. My resume shows that I am far more qualified than virtually all of the other applicants. I have never received a response, much less an offer. Why? I am 76.
I'm so sorry, yes I know it is a reality for men too.
It happens to men, but we can’t say that it does. We have to pretend that we become more visible, more attractive and more powerful as we age, but the reality of it all isn’t true... we become shadows... not quite invisible, but also not quite visible.
Thanks for this and for the referral to Bennett's article. I will soon become that "80-year old woman" that is getting so much stereotypical press coverage -- an astonishing (to me) fact of life. But I have been majorly annoyed at the astonishment among many reporters that an "80-year old" can have strength and gumption and the capacity to have goals, stand tall (well I am a little bowed and envy E. Jean's posture) and talk intelligently and with critical understanding both about her own experience and a larger than personal worldview. I don't consider myself part of the "silent generation" but part of the second wave of feminist loudmouths -- the not so silent generation that came of age and helped change the role of women in the sixties and seventies and that are especially frustrated now by the apparent back sliding. Go E. Jean! and Liza!
"... that are especially frustrated now by the apparent back sliding." At a few public gatherings on various issues, I've seen T's and signs that say "I can't believe I still have to protest this sh*t."
It is incredible, isn't it? Yay for feminist loudmouths!! When I listened to E.Jean's testimony at the first trial, she was incredible in how she decribed Trump's assault and her reaction. It was compelety believable, particularly knowing her a little and knowing the times it happened in. I am so glad things are getting somewhat better...although not great for sure on so many levels and for so many women.
I can remember the phrase "Act your age!" during teen years (to my brother) but never after that. I don't think ageism is simply a feminist issue as the men here have said. I do believe women are less valued for their minds and looks as we get older than men. Society is geared to valuing the youthful with job opportunities, television and magazine ads (erase those hard earned age lines!) and perpetuating the myth that we elders have little to offer. Remember everyone, with age comes wisdom! Carroll remains smart, capable and tenacious and all those adjectives you used, Liza. As Tina Turner sang so well, "What has age got to do with it?"
Maybe because I was raised around strong older women who persevered, and men who, whatever they did in their lives, turned to their mothers with deference for advice - solicited - or especially when not. I didn’t question my worth as I’ve grown older. The women whatever age in the family don’t either. And yet almost every single one of us (not including the granddaughter or grandnieces) have experienced, to a lesser or greater degree, molestation in our lives. It makes me ill thinking of it. It makes me ill seeing it, it makes me furious when women don’t acknowledge it.
Yes. Yes. Women are a part of the patriarchy, too.
Thanks for your article and the Bennett article about this strong and courageous woman. As a woman of 67 who plans to "retire" at the end of this year, it makes me even more eager to jump into all the things I want to explore beyond all the fascinating work I have been doing for almost 5 decades!
Have fun!
I am so glad to read about Carroll's career and your comments really hit a nerve with me. I was hassled by a man in one of my positions, a higher up who had a great deal of potential power over me. When I refused to comply with his demands, he was dumbfounded. "You won't be young and beautiful forever," he said. There are so many ways in which that sentence typifies the sense of entitlement that these men have and when it's challenged, they get very angry. Thanks for your additional information on Carroll.
Infuriating.
I will read it. As an 80 year-old male cumudgeon ('old fart' to the young) I am truly inspired by this amazing woman and eager to brave the pain and discomfort of the next twenty years just to grow, learn and express my ideas as I have been doing all my life. I wish Ms. Carroll all good fortune and success and would be thrilled to see her beat out the lumbering loaf of lies.
Thank you for being an ally. All of the men here who are subscribers I consider allys (well almost all).
Thanks for posting the link to Ms. Bennett’ op-ed piece. It definitely raised my awareness of Ms. Carroll’s accomplishments and talents. I have made it a point to limit Trump related news but have greatly admired E. Jean Carroll’s courage and competence throughout.
The issue of ageism leaves one with much to think about.
Thank you, Paul.
There's a funny (well, not funny if it feels familiar) in a Grace & Frankie episode where the clerk at the checkout ignores them, the message being they're older women. What they do to get his attention ... unfortunately, at 66 I can relate. I live where there are lots of walkers and bikers on a seaside boardwalk and park paths. As I walk or run, I find a group of 3 to 6 20-somethings will be walking/running towards me taking up lots of room and not move over to accommodate me. Like I'm supposed to veer off into the landscaping mulch or off the path into the poison ivy. I just stay the course and do not move over. Sometimes they are annoyed and move last second. Sometimes one of them has manners and guides their group around me, sometimes with a sheepish "sorry about that" or a look of "these guys are dolts." It even happened in the pool swimming laps once! Sometimes I smile and say "great day, isn't it?" Depends on my mood. I will not be "unseen."
“I will not be ‘unseen.’”
GOOD!! Carrying a cane and placing it strategically in certain places at times doesn’t hurt either, especially if it has that claw at the end of it. “Oh, I’m so sorry! Is your foot ok? Again, so sorry...” 😉😀
I LOVE this! I have hiking/trekking poles, they have a scary looking sharp point. ;-)
I know that scene! SO good.
ANd I do the same thing with young people sometimes on the sidewalk, seeing if they see me and give me my half of the walk like it's supposed to be on a highway.
For leading age Boomer men … [long, boring catalog of widely known and personally stinging experience omitted from consideration of the reader].
Well, we have the Ken problem. Rewrite the fable so that Barbieland was a multi-generational community free of any Kens, Kens only arrive from the Real World finding themselves suddenly old and incapable of mounting a hostile takeover by the Patriarchy and just as beset by confusion as real men are in the Real World.
It used to be that there were manly jobs, recognized as such. Typically, these required a combination of physical strength, agility, endurance, willingness to risk grave injury or death and a secure place in a team hierarchy. A guy might not be a foreman at the steel plant, but he could be the bowling league champ. Lumberjacks, commercial fishermen, cowboys, fire jumpers, miners were jobs that presumptively fit the bill. They didn't need a college degree, oversize pick-up trucks, lush facial hair, musculature or billboarded skin. The unassailable subordination of women across the board made overt misogyny unnecessary. Bar fights did happen, but they seldom resulted more than a broken jaw. The implicit threat of exercising free speech rights with concealed pistols wasn't there.
Today, not so much. The traditional manly jobs such as firefighter that remain turned out not to rely so much on the same combination of manly virtues as formerly thought. It became harder to keep the girls out of the treehouses. Or even locker rooms. Only in the NBL, NBL and MLB could they be excluded from the courts and the fields. So what used to be hero worship turned into worship of the remaining real men in the world.
You can spin out the details, and reach the inevitable conclusion: sixty years along three generations of men haven't reconciled to the reality that women can get by without them when motherhood is an optional role. It can even be taken on as a sideline to being her own breadwinner.
When I saw the "woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle," meme, I got the obvious but missed the fundamental point. From a feminist viewpoint, it's not unfair to think of men as a lifestyle accessory. As such, the best we can hope for is for our style to be in and out of fashion. At least until we invent new manly virtues, aging is only going to make faking the old ones infeasible.
The tropes are so effective. When I became the youngest woman editor of a mass circulation magazine, Murdoch media described me as "a champion gymnast with editorial experience." No wonder it's such a battle for women to be taken seriously. Thanks for the post liza.
Oh good lord. And most people don't even notice this kind of thing. It's incidious.
I limit my news to limit my stress. The most I know of this trial is through you, Liza. I so appreciate that you amplify strong women (and that you ARE one). Your posts give me comfort and hope.
Wendy, I am very glad to hear that, you are so thoughtful to let me know how you feel. Amplifying strong women has been my passion for decades.
It shows, and we are all better for it!
Thank you!